House Speaker Mike Johnson, R-La., appears to be holding firm on his strategy for pressuring Senate Democrats to agree to end the government shutdown, he indicated in both public and private comments Thursday. 

But even as he and Senate Majority Leader John Thune, R-S.D., continue with their plans, some House GOP lawmakers are growing nervous about the potential fallout.

House Republicans held a private call Thursday where Johnson briefed them on the current state of play. And while GOP lawmakers were largely unified behind their leader, Fox News Digital was told, several did express concerns about optics coming from the House and Senate as the shutdown is poised to enter a tenth day.

Johnson had previously canceled House votes this week to keep national attention on Democrats’ resistance to the GOP’s plan to fund the government. 

The speaker told House Republicans he would give them 48 hours’ notice before the next House votes were called but did not say when that would be, Fox News Digital was told — after publicly stating multiple times that their return would depend on Senate Democrats.

He said on CNN’s ‘State of the Union’ on Wednesday: ‘As soon as [Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y.] decides to stop playing games, we’ll bring everybody back here and get right back to regular session.’

But at least three House Republicans are advocating for the chamber to return next week whether the shutdown is resolved or not, including two on the Thursday call.

Reps. Jay Obernolte, R-Calif., and Julie Fedorchak, R-N.D., both spoke up in favor of returning next week, sources told Fox News Digital.

Obernolte told Johnson the House had more work to do beyond spending bills, adding, ‘None of that is getting done,’ Fox News Digital was told.

‘I think we’re going to get to a point where it’s damaging to continue to keep the House out of session. I think we’ve gotten to that point,’ Obernolte said, Fox News Digital was told.

Fedorchak said she believed House Republicans would be in a better strategic position if they were in D.C., sources said.

But Johnson reiterated his 48-hour pledge and said a recess next week was not a ‘final call’ but pointed out that most House Republicans thought it was the right decision, sources said.

Meanwhile, Rep. Kevin Kiley, R-Calif., made his concerns public on Wednesday, writing on X, ‘What the House has done is pass a 7-week Continuing Resolution. The entire reason a CR is necessary is that Congress has not done its job in passing a timely budget. The Speaker shouldn’t even think about canceling session for a third straight week.’

On the Thursday call, Johnson also indicated he would not hold a standalone vote on keeping the military paid during the shutdown, sources said.

The speaker argued it was a push led by Democrats who were seeking political cover despite rejecting the GOP’s funding plan — which would keep the military paid and the entire government open through at least Nov. 21.

As it stands, service members on active duty are deemed ‘essential’ and must keep working, but they could miss their next paychecks on Oct. 15 if the shutdown is ongoing.

‘The entire government has to be reopened simultaneously,’ Johnson said, sources told Fox News Digital.

But that’s also been met with some concern by House lawmakers.

Rep. Jen Kiggans, R-Va., who is leading a bill to ensure troops are paid during a shutdown, wrote on X Wednesday, ‘The President has made it clear: we must pay our troops. I’m urging the Speaker and our House leadership to immediately pass my bill to ensure our service members, many of whom live paycheck to paycheck while supporting their families, receive the pay they’ve earned.’

Meanwhile, two other House Republicans — Reps. John Rutherford, R-Fla., and Tom Barrett, R-Mich. — spoke up during lawmakers’ call on Thursday with concerns about the Senate GOP not moving to bypass Democrats altogether to reopen the government.

Under current Senate rules, most legislation needs to meet a 60-vote threshold to overcome a filibuster and allow for debate.

But there have been several exceptions made in modern times, triggered by the Senate majority leader, in which rules have been changed to lower the threshold to 51 votes for certain issues. Senate Republicans most recently used it earlier this year to overcome Democrats’ blockade on President Donald Trump’s nominees.

However, Federal funding legislation still needs 60 votes, something Rutherford and Barrett said the Senate should consider changing.

Rutherford specifically warned he was concerned it could open Republicans up to ‘bad messaging’ if the Senate did not use the so-called ‘nuclear option’ to ensure the military was paid on time when it was used so recently for presidential nominees.

Johnson, as leader of the House of Representatives, does not have a say over what the Senate does. But he addressed a similar query during a Q&A with Americans on C-SPAN Thursday morning.

‘The filibuster is a tradition there that people on both sides cherish, and the reason is if you blow that up, and you go nuclear on something like a CR, their argument is you would open a Pandora’s box,’ Johnson said.

‘What if the socialists take over the Senate, and Democrat socialists are in charge, and they want to grow government to take over the means of production, and they don’t have any safeguard there, and they could do it with a bare-minimum majority next time?’

The government shutdown is poised to roll into a tenth day on Friday after Senate Democrats rejected the GOP’s funding plan a seventh time.

Republicans are pushing a short-term extension of fiscal year (FY) 2025 funding levels, called a continuing resolution (CR), to give lawmakers more time to reach a deal on FY2026 spending levels.

But Democrats, infuriated at being sidelined in the discussions, are demanding serious concessions on healthcare provisions in exchange for their support for a spending deal.

‘Trump derangement syndrome’ has spiraled to pathological levels, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said during the White House’s monthly Cabinet meeting Thursday, pointing to a recent trend of pregnant moms protesting President Donald Trump by taking Tylenol — despite warnings the medicine could be tied to autism. 

‘The level of Trump derangement syndrome has now left political landscapes, and it is now a pathology,’ Kennedy said. ‘That a mother could overwhelm millions of years of maternal instinct to put her baby at risk.’ 

Kennedy explained to his colleagues and the media that he watched a video of a pregnant Columbia medical professor ingesting Tylenol on TikTok to protest Trump ahead of the meeting, and was startled that any mom would willingly ingest the over-the-counter pain medication following reports it’s allegedly tied to skyrocketing autism trends. 

‘Any mother who is taking this up during pregnancy just to get back into Donald Trump is doing something that is, it is pathological,’ he said. ‘And we’re seeing that across the board.’ 

Trump announced in September while flanked by U.S. health leaders that Tylenol taken during pregnancy ‘can be associated with a very increased risk of autism.’ 

Kennedy said during the same event that the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Food and Drug Administration, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are ‘turning over every stone to identify the ideology of the autism epidemic and how patients and parents can prevent and reverse this alarming trend.’

‘We have broken down the traditional silos that have long separated these agencies, and we have fast-tracked research and guidance,’ said Kennedy. ‘Historically, NIH has focused on almost solely on politically safe and entirely fruitless research about the genetic drivers of autism. And that would be like studying the genetic drivers of lung cancer without looking at cigarettes, and that’s what NIH has been doing for 20 years.’

Tylenol manufacturer Kenvue said it strongly disagreed with the administration’s assessment in comment to Fox Digital in September. 

‘We believe independent, sound science clearly shows that taking acetaminophen does not cause autism,’ a company spokesperson said at the time. ‘We strongly disagree with any suggestion otherwise and are deeply concerned with the health risk this poses for expecting mothers.’

Fox News Digital reached out to Kenvue Thursday afternoon for additional comment on Kennedy’s and Trump’s most recent Tylenol remarks but did not immediately receive a reply.

Following the September announcement, liberal pregnant moms began filming themselves taking Tylenol and posting the videos to X and TikTok as a way to protest Trump. Critics have balked at the claims that the common over-the-counter pain medicine is tied to autism. 

‘It is so suggestive that anybody who takes this stuff during pregnancy, unless they have to, is irresponsible,’ Kennedy continued Thursday.

Kennedy told Trump that, back in 1970, researchers in Wisconsin determined that roughly one in 20,000 eight-year-olds in the state had autism before skyrocketing in the following decades. Kennedy called the increasing autism rates a ‘national security issue.’ 

‘Now, it’s 1 in 12 for boys, 1 in 18, 19 for girls. So obviously there’s something, there’s something that’s artificially, I think, (inducing) something,’ Trump added. 

Kennedy continued that there are a handful of studies pointing to Tylenol’s alleged links to autism, including among male babies who are circumcised. 

‘There’s two studies that show children who are circumcised early have double the rate of autism,’ he said. ‘It’s highly likely it’s because they’re given Tylenol.’ 

Trump added that ‘there’s a tremendous amount of proof’ surrounding the claims linking Tylenol to autism, and remarked that he has discussed the increasing autism rate with Kennedy going back 20 years. 

‘I’ve studied this a long time ago,’ Trump said, noting he himself is not a doctor. ‘You know, I met Bobby in my office 20 years ago. We were talking about the same thing 20 years ago. And, I was a real estate developer, it bothered me that it seemed to be getting worse. But it’s so bad now when you hear these numbers, it’s not even really sustainable.’

Fox News Digital’s Diana Stancy contributed to this report. 

The sudden announcement that Israel and Hamas had agreed to a U.S.-brokered ceasefire Wednesday night reignited a once-far-fetched question in world politics: could President Donald Trump win the Nobel Peace Prize?

If the ceasefire holds, it would signify a landmark achievement months in the making for a president who has branded himself a global peacemaker. Trump has long insisted he deserves the prize but doubts the committee would ever give it to him.

‘I’m not politicking for it,’ Trump said when asked about the prospect during the Aug. 8 signing of a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan at the White House. ‘I have a lot of people that are.’

Indeed, many have nominated him — often with public fanfare.

Nominations and deadlines

The deadline for this year’s nominations was January 31. Some proposals for Trump came in before then, but many arrived after the cutoff date. If he does not win when the prize is announced Friday, he could be considered again next year.

Rep. Claudia Tenney, R-N.Y., said she nominated Trump, along with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for their work on the 2020 Abraham Accords between Israel and Arab states.

According to the Nobel Committee, 338 candidates were nominated this year — 244 individuals and 94 organizations.

Global push for Trump’s nomination

International support for Trump’s candidacy has come from a range of leaders. On June 20, Pakistani officials said they would recommend him for ‘decisive diplomatic intervention and pivotal leadership’ during a U.S.-brokered ceasefire between India and Pakistan.

A trio of Republican lawmakers nominated him after the Alaska summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin, though that has not yet produced a ceasefire in Ukraine. Sen. John Fetterman, D-Pa., quipped that he would be ‘the Democrat leading’ the charge for Trump to win if he could broker peace in that conflict as well.

Rep. Buddy Carter, R-Ga., nominated Trump in June following the Israel-Iran ceasefire agreement. Netanyahu said he submitted his own nomination in July, while Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan and Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Manet announced their nominations after separate U.S.-brokered peace agreements in their regions.

According to Oddspedia, Trump currently leads betting markets for the prize, followed by Sudan’s emergency response rooms and Russian opposition figure Yulia Navalnaya, widow of the late Alexei Navalny. Other contenders — such as Greta Thunberg, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) and the International Criminal Court — represent causes often at odds with Trump’s policies.

Trump: ‘The people know’

Trump has expressed little faith that the Nobel Committee will recognize him, despite his flurry of diplomatic initiatives.

‘No, I won’t get a Nobel Peace Prize no matter what I do — including Russia/Ukraine and Israel/Iran, whatever those outcomes may be,’ he wrote on Truth Social in June. ‘But the people know, and that’s all that matters to me.’

Inside the Nobel Committee

The Oslo-based Norwegian Nobel Committee is made up of five members appointed by Norway’s parliament to uphold Alfred Nobel’s will, awarding the prize to whoever has done ‘the most or the best work for fraternity between nations.’

The current committee includes Jørgen Watne Frydnes, secretary general of the Utøya Foundation; Asle Toje, a foreign-policy scholar linked to the right-leaning Progress Party; Anne Enger, a former Centre Party leader; Kristin Clemet, head of Civita, a center-right think tank that promotes free-market and democratic values; and Gry Larsen, secretary general of CARE Norway.

The panel’s composition suggests long odds for Trump. With most members rooted in Norway’s center-left and centrist traditions — and only Toje aligned with the right-leaning Progress Party — the committee tends to favor humanitarian, consensus-driven peace efforts over Trump’s deal-oriented diplomacy. It is generally seen as cautious and establishment-leaning, unlikely to reward his unconventional style even amid short-term progress in Gaza.

The Obama precedent

The Nobel Committee last faced this level of scrutiny when it awarded President Barack Obama the Peace Prize just nine months into his first term in 2009, citing his promotion of nuclear nonproliferation and a ‘new climate’ in international relations.

Obama was deeply popular in Europe at the time, but by the end of his presidency U.S.-Russia relations had sunk to a post-Cold War low, and American forces were still fighting in Afghanistan and Syria — a reminder that the Nobel Peace Prize can be as politically fraught as it is symbolic.

A House GOP lawmaker is tapping President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize after he announced a landmark agreement to end the Israel-Hamas war.

Rep. Buddy Carter, R-Ga., told Fox News Digital that he would be introducing a resolution to nominate Trump for the honor.

The president announced the first phase of a peace agreement between the two sides on his Truth Social app on Wednesday evening, writing, ‘This means that ALL of the Hostages will be released very soon, and Israel will withdraw their Troops to an agreed upon line as the first steps toward a Strong, Durable, and Everlasting Peace.’

The news was lauded by both Democrat and Republican officials.

‘No one deserves the Nobel Peace Prize more than Donald J. Trump, the Peace President. In nine short months, he’s negotiated seven peace deals, not including the recent announcement of a historic agreement between Israel and Hamas to release the hostages and end hostilities,’ Carter told Fox News Digital.

‘He has already saved countless lives, and the globe is forever indebted to him for his courageous pursuit of world peace.’

The Nobel Prizes, awarded every year, are being announced this week. The winner of the Nobel Peace Prize is expected to be announced Friday.

Fox News Digital was told that Carter, who is running for U.S. Senate in Georgia, intends to move on a mechanism aimed at forcing a vote on his resolution if Trump does not win on Friday.

The mechanism, known as a discharge petition, would require House leaders to hold a vote on a measure if the petition behind it garners a majority of signatures in the chamber — which would occur if all Republicans signed on.

Carter is one of several House Republicans to nominate Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize since he took office in January.

The last U.S. commander in chief to win a Nobel Peace Prize was President Barack Obama in 2009.

Consumers’ Research, a leading nonprofit dedicated to consumer information and taking on woke corporations, launched a new campaign Thursday targeting insurance giant Chubb Limited and its CEO Evan Greenberg, alleging ‘deep ties to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).’

The campaign, which is facing pushback from a Chubb official and a pair of renowned China hawks accusing the nonprofit of misrepresenting Greenberg’s view, is part of a seven-figure initiative titled ‘China Chubb.’ The campaign accuses the insurance company and its chief executive of ‘cozying up to the CCP’ and ‘using their market power and resources to push a woke, political agenda on the American people.’

The effort falls under Consumers’ Research’s Consumers First Initiative, aimed at exposing companies the group claims put politics ahead of consumers. Chubb’s business reaches across 54 countries, including China, territories, all 50 states and employs over 40,000 people worldwide.

Consumers’ Research says the campaign will include a national 30-second television advertisement titled ‘China Chubb,’ which will begin airing across the country following the launch. 

The campaign also features a new website, ChinaChubb.com, a mobile billboard that will circulate throughout Washington, D.C., including Capitol Hill and Chubb’s Washington office, as well as a targeted digital push with sponsored content on social media platforms and online news outlets.

The ad campaign received a sharp rebuke from a Chubb spokesperson, who called it ‘completely dishonest’ in a statement to Fox News Digital. 

‘Evan has called out China’s authoritarian approach and predatory practices. He has repeatedly called for the U.S. to stand up and defend its interests,’ the spokesperson said. 

Robert O’Brien, former National Security Adviser to President Donald Trump, also pushed back on the ad in a statement to Fox News Digital. 

‘I’ve worked with Evan Greenberg for several years now on American relations with China,’ O’Brien said. ‘In my dealings with Evan, he has been a proponent of U.S. interests in the region. Through its operations in China, his company has contributed to shrinking the U.S. trade deficit.’

However, a Fox News Digital review found that Greenberg has personal and professional entanglements with the CCP, including meetings with Chinese President Xi Jinping and offering public statements praising the CCP’s global vision.

Earlier this year, Greenberg reportedly attended China’s prestigious China Development Forum alongside executives like Blackstone’s Stephen Schwarzman and Mastercard’s Michael Miebach. The annual forum, which includes delegates from all over the world, also includes access to dozens of top CCP officials, according to a list of delegates released earlier this year.

During this same week, Greenberg was pictured in a press release posted by the Chinese government showing him shaking hands with Wang Yi, a member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, a top CCP position. The press release paraphrased Greenberg saying, ‘U.S.-China relationship is the most significant bilateral relationship in the world.’

In 2024, Greenberg was photographed not only shaking hands with Xi in Beijing as Chair of the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations, but was also offering glowing remarks about China’s ‘resilience and vitality.’ 

‘China’s exceptional economic growth and transformation over the past decades speak to its strong resilience and vitality,’ Greenberg said.

In November 2023, he introduced Xi at a San Francisco event.

‘Like many others in this room, I believe that a strong and prosperous China that supports and invests in the international system can be a force for good in the world,’ Greenberg said at that event. 

‘We are gathered today to gain insight from President Xi into his vision for the future of his country, and of the relationship between the United States and China. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in warmly welcoming President Xi Jinping.’

That same month, Evan Greenberg was elected Board Chair of the National Committee on
U.S.-China Relations after having been ‘an exemplary’ board member and officer of the National Committee and ‘supporting the Committee’s mission.’ The National Committee on U.S.-China Relations sold $40,000 tickets to Americans and American businesses to sit at Xi Jinping’s table during the welcome banquet in San Francisco featuring several other senior CCP officials and guests, which got slammed in a scathing letter from the House Select Committee on the CCP.

In 2022, Xi sent personal greetings to a gala honoring Greenberg. Meanwhile, Greenberg sits on the advisory board of Tsinghua University School of Economics & Management, an institution tied directly to China’s national security and defense apparatus. That university operates under a wing of the Chinese government known for defense tech development — a connection that would likely raise red flags for any U.S. executive overseeing sensitive insurance data.

Greenberg is not the only prominent American business leader serving on that board, a group that includes Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Carlyle Group co-founder David Rubenstein, and Apple CEO Tim Cook. 

Greenberg has also called on the U.S. to ‘tone down rhetoric around Taiwan’ and slamming efforts to contain the CCP as ‘self-isolating’ and doomed to fail. In shareholder letters, he’s warned against treating U.S.-China competition as a ‘new cold war,’ and labeled some American trade protections as ‘wrongheaded’ and ‘unwise.’

Greenberg has acknowledged the complicated nature of the Taiwan situation, however.

‘Taiwan presents the most proximate risk of conflict for the U.S.-China relationship,’ he said in 2022. ‘Beijing has made its ambition clear that it wants to pull Taiwan into its orbit and, increasingly, is matching resources to its ambitions. Washington is improving coordination with allies to collectively deter China from using force, while at the same time supporting Taiwan’s efforts to improve its self-defense.’

Also in 2022, Chubb secured Chinese government approval to acquire majority control of Huatai Insurance Group, a Chinese firm with over $10 billion in assets. That stake has since grown to 85.5%. Meanwhile, Greenberg’s father, Hank Greenberg, orchestrated business deals and meetings with CCP officials, including a Xi-endorsed event ahead of a key U.S.-China summit.

That same year, Greenberg’s father led a group of executives meeting with Chinese officials ahead of Xi’s summit with President Biden in Bali. A think tank affiliated with China’s foreign ministry
organized the Chinese delegation.

Additionally, a company owned by Greenberg’s father, C.V. Starr, owns over 90% of a Chinese insurer formerly known as Dazhong. 

Greenberg has not exclusively been complimentary of China and has voiced concerns and critiques about China, saying last year, ‘China has undermined its appeal in many parts of the region through its revanchist efforts to demand acquiescence to its territorial claims and mismanagement of its own economy.’

‘Beijing’s dimming domestic performance is reducing its appeal, and its bullying behavior is driving many countries closer to the United States.’

A 2022 Chubb annual report states that the U.S. is seeking an Indo-Pacific regions that ‘remains free from Chinese hegemony.’ The insurance company’s 2023 annual report was also critical of China saying, ‘China is viewed both as important and as a source of anxiety for many countries around the world. China is a revisionist and revanchist power that is pursuing a large-scale expansion in military capabilities.’

Fox News contributor and China expert Michael Pillsbury told Fox News Digital that Greenberg has been playing a role communicating with China to benefit the Trump administration.

‘Over the last few months before China accepted President Trump’s request to meet with Xi Jinping, Evan Greenberg played a backstage role to get American complaints by bringing together American CEOs to meet Xi Jinping,’ Pillsbury said. 

‘Learning how badly American companies have been treated helps President Trump because he is determined to end outrageous mistreatment of American companies. White House friends of mine tell me Evan Greenberg developed a list of grievances of how badly treated our companies are in China. One CEO even used the term China ‘gangsterizes our companies.’’

Consumers’ Research Executive Director Will Hild told Fox News Digital that Chubb’s leadership has ignored clear national security warnings about China.

‘Despite growing warnings from U.S. intelligence about the risks posed by the Chinese Communist Party, Chubb has invested billions of dollars in Chinese companies and Greenberg continues to treat Chinese President Xi Jinping as a partner and friend, even meeting personally with Xi Jinping and publicly introducing him as a force for good,’ Hild said.

‘As the saying goes, your friends show who you really are and Greenberg’s actions have made it clear he is all in on the CCP. Our campaign exposes the uncomfortable truth: when American corporations cozy up to Communist dictators and push woke policies at home, they betray not just their country, but their customers,’ he added.

When President Donald Trump and Finnish President Alexander Stubb sealed their latest trade agreement on Thursday, it wasn’t just a handshake for 11 rugged ships. 

It was another sign of a friendship that’s quickly turning into strategy.

Where other European leaders have tried to win Trump’s respect through policy and persuasion, Stubb chose the fairway. In March, the Finnish president — once a national golf team player — turned up at Mar-a-Lago not with briefing notes, but with clubs, challenging Trump to a round and earning something rarer than a trade deal: rapport.

Presentation matters to Trump, and Stubb — 6-foot-3, fit and sharply dressed in a double-breasted coat — seemed to meet the moment. When the two last met at the White House in August, Trump told him he ‘looked better than ever’ and introduced him as ‘a young, powerful man.’

That personal chemistry, maintained through frequent text exchanges, has quietly opened doors for the Finnish president, a longtime marathoner and triathlete with a competitive streak. What’s more, it’s translating into real policy — from defense contracts to Arctic cooperation — elevating the once-quiet Nordic nation to new prominence in Washington.

It’s an unlikely rise for a country better known for saunas and serenity than for summits. Stubb hails from a nation of 5.6 million that routinely tops the world’s happiness index, where forests blanket nearly 75% of the land and lakes glint by the hundreds of thousands.

Finland — slightly smaller than the state of Montana and wedged between Sweden and Russia — has long had its security outlook shaped by geography, a position that now places it on the front line of NATO and Arctic strategy.

The trade deal signed Thursday, for 11 ships valued at roughly $6.1 billion, is the latest sign of how that alignment is taking shape. Under the deal Trump approved, three of the ships will be built by Davie in Galveston, Texas, and four by Bollinger Shipyards in Houma, Louisiana, a setup that aligns with his ‘Made in America’ credo and emphasis on creating U.S. jobs, injecting billions of dollars into the maritime industrial base.

And when it comes to icebreakers, Helsinki is firmly in its element: Finnish companies design roughly 80% of the world’s fleet.

Finland’s expertise has made it more than just a supplier. It’s turned Helsinki into a trusted player in Trump’s Arctic strategy, a region increasingly defined by military competition with Russia and China, melting sea routes and access to critical minerals.

That partnership cuts both ways. For Finland, the agreement deepens defense cooperation with the U.S. and elevates it from NATO newcomer to strategic partner, a bridge linking Washington to the fast-changing Arctic frontier.

‘We are very pleased with the fact that we have so much training going on with American soldiers right now. They are getting experience from our Arctic conditions, and we are integrating our militaries together,’ Stubb said during a meeting in the Oval Office Thursday. 

For now, Stubb’s rapport with Trump has turned the fairway into a diplomatic fast track. Whether that personal chemistry endures amid shifting politics remains to be seen, but, for Finland, the gains are already tangible. 

Stubb has learned what some other global counterparts haven’t. With Trump, a well-timed drive can travel farther than any policy memo. And, so far, that lesson is paying off for both men.